From Accounting to Advising: A Veteran’s Journey in Developing a Coaching Mindset

Welcome to Legacy Builders, strategies for building successful family enterprises. Brought to you by Beacon Family Office at Assante Financial Management Limited. I’m your host, Cory Gagnon, Senior Wealth Advisor. And on this show, we explore global ideas, concepts, and models that help family enterprises better navigate the complexities of family wealth.

Today we welcome Jas Butalia a Partner at WBM Partners LLP. With an impressive experience of over 50 years as a Chartered Accountant and tax practitioner, Jas brings a wealth of knowledge to the WBM team and his clients. His extensive background includes serving as a Tax Partner in western Canada with one of the largest national and international accounting firms. Jas has also demonstrated his versatility by acting as a CFO for a private family farm corporation with over 54,000 acres in cultivation. As a Chartered Professional Accountant, Trust and Estate Practitioner, Family Enterprise Advisor and Professional Coach, Jas’ diverse experience, both within Canada and internationally, makes him an invaluable resource for a wide-ranging clientele.

My goal is to be the most curious person in today’s conversation with Jas Butalia, where we explore his journey from a technical practitioner to a trusted family business coach. We will explore how pivotal client engagements and mentorship through the years shaped Jas’ understanding of the true needs of family enterprises, leading him to develop a more holistic and inquisitive approach. Jas will share insights on how he now focuses on understanding each family’s unique dynamics, goals, and aspirations, guiding them through the complexities of continuity and value creation with empathy and purpose. 

Now, let’s dive in!

Cory: Welcome Jas! We’re excited to have you here today to share your wealth of knowledge and experiences with us. Let’s dive in, shall we?

Jas: Certainly. Thank you, and appreciate the invitation to be part of the podcast.

Cory: Awesome. Well, Jas, imagine you’re delivering the commencement speech to the graduating class of 2024 and you have the chance to inspire them with your story. How would you begin the speech to convey the incredible lessons and expertise that you’ve acquired in your career?

Jas: Cory, you said a few words there that made me think about things that might even qualify to do so, but the fact of the matter is, I’ve been around long enough to be able to share what I’ve learned along the way. I’ll just jump right into it.

I think the biggest thing that I’ve learned in my journey since It’s been almost 55 years in the practice of accounting and tax, I think it’s been a case of learning to always be ready to learn. Does that make sense?

Cory: It does.

Jas: Just keep the mind open. Come to the table, to the discussion that there’s not much one knows. Let’s see what one can learn from it. I would say to the graduating class, take every opportunity you get to learn and you’ve come to that. Always be ready to learn.

Cory: Is this something where from day one, your curiosity and hunger or is that something that you’ve developed along the way?

Jas: Cory, without a doubt. It’s something I’ve developed along the way. Regrettably, when I was younger, I thought I knew a lot more than I know. At this point, I’d like to just mention that it’s not been anything smart that I’ve done.

I’ve just been around a lot of smart people. I’ve been given up opportunities by my seniors, my mentors, and my clients, who have allowed me the opportunity to see that I didn’t know much. The fact that I didn’t know much, there was a lot more to learn and they allowed me to learn in a very safe environment.

Cory: Tell me more about that. You’ve got these mentors, partners, early days as an accountant, I’m sure, trying to make your mark in the community that you served in the firm that you were a part of. You’re working with these people and come to that realization.

Was that at the time, or is that a reflection looking back?

Jas: Without a doubt, it was a reflection. I didn’t realize what was happening. The gracious people that were there didn’t make me feel like I didn’t know anything, but they certainly encouraged me to learn more. I’ll get this if you don’t mind an example.

Cory: Absolutely.

Jas: I landed in Canada 55 years ago and it was the old firm that I worked with for many, many years, they hired me on sight and seen from India. The interview was just to lay the table for it. The interview that I applied to was the Institute of Charter Accountants of BC from India. I got a response back saying be here in 9 days or you can forget it.

You’re not going to be a chartered accountant or given the opportunity and loan behold, ended up in the interior of BC 9 days later and it was a firm. It was the office of the firm was I’m going to say maybe thinking back now 25 people. There were some very senior people and the way they approached this rookie from India, this new immigrant, to teach one without really becoming obvious that they were teaching.

Remember, this is at a time when coaching was not on anybody’s lips. We called our seniors’ misters. We called our partners, misters, and sirs. These were people who I can tell you in reflecting back in those days, I doubt that they had ever been coached themselves, but they were coaches. Some of the things I did.

They allowed me to trip over myself time and time again, but they had a safety net for me.

Cory: Having those mentors, and as you said, coaching wasn’t a thing but they were doing it. it’s a mindset. How did that shape your approach and career?

Jas: I think that’s where the mind started to really open up. I when I looked back, accounting to me was auditing, preparing financial statements, and doing returns. That’s what my imagination was until they allowed me then. I clearly remember in 1970 when we first saw the white paper of the new tax laws. They allowed me to play around with it.

Let me call it that without criticism, without any restrictions. Clearly, they saw something that I call a passion for. You just let me go at it. I mean, tax, frankly, is a dangerous thing. Practicing texts but there were 60 nets that they provided me all the way.

Cory: Right. As you say, tax is a dangerous thing. Our government in Canada has made it and even as recent as this newest budget has enhanced rules in it for people practicing tax and accountancy, which personally, I believe, is making it harder for people to want to practice in that field, how did those safety nets allow you to actually explore and develop that expertise?

Jas: I’ll give you an example, I knew that there were seniors there who would not let me down if I went down the wrong path, which allowed me then to explore more. I go back to the comment that I made, which is learning.

Because of their broad-mindedness, I believe an approach where what’s going to happen is we’re going to have to co-correct it. They allowed me to explore, to make the mistakes, to learn from the mistakes.

The quid pro quote that was I learned very quickly that if I made mistakes, which I did. I would not be penalized for it, there was no such thing as a penalty. The penalty box, I can tell you, did not assist in that group of people.

Cory: Now, you made the comment about your clients giving you that freedom as well. How was that delivered, I guess from them to allow you to learn and grow and make those mistakes?

Jas: That’s an easy one to explain. As you can imagine back in 1971, I was really a kid. I’m not even a CA at that point in time. I didn’t get my certification but the clients would bring me the opportunities.

The clients say I’d like to do this knowing full well that I’m not a qualified CA at that point in time. Think about that from a confidence point of view. Couple that with the people you’re working with within the team, it does something for your psyche.

Cory: Absolutely. Now bringing it to the way that you approach family enterprises, how have these lessons along the way changed the way that you approach your client engagements?

Jas: Cory, I wish you hadn’t asked that question. Honest to goodness because it took me a long time to understand what the family business really needed from me.

Being a technical person, a tax person as they call us, or a tax man as they call us. We were so focused; I was so focused. I won’t say I was so focused on being able to deliver the technical aspects of it.

I spent probably 30 years, 35 years of my life, thinking as well. I spent my entire career in family business advisory. It’s the stuff that I enjoy.  And here I was, everything was about the technical aspect. The end goal was always, we’re going to use this. We’re going to use this technique. That’s not what, family business counseling is about. How did I come to that conclusion? Frankly, it wasn’t until 2009. Keep in mind, I’m talking 1960. Here’s when I started practice, in 2009. That’s 41 years later. That some events took place in my life with a family business that got me thinking about, “Wait a minute, there is much more to this than meets the eye” This being family business.

Cory: Right. Going back to 2009, there was a change in the way that you viewed your value, how did that come about?

Was it that you were doing some education and fell into this? Was it that you had a client engagement and realized that’s not what they needed? They needed more. How did that come about?

Jas: I would, I had a bit of a career age where I was employed in the industry. That’s the point in time that much to my concern, I had been offered to take on the role of a CFO. By then, I did realize very well that a CFO’s role was different from a practitioner’s role. I was reluctant to take it on, but the client persuaded me.

To do so. I observed what went on in the family at that point in time, and what I could not offer them what I needed to offer them and that’s where the shift took place very clearly.

Cory: Now from a family perspective, you say the client persuaded you. They had identified a need to have a CFO within their enterprise. Was this a new position to them, or had they previously had a CFO?

Jas: They’d never had a CFO, they’d grown so rapidly. Again, typical business, family business.
mom and Dad can do everything. And if the kids can get involved in it as well, they can do everything. But the growth had been exponential.

Cory: And so going back to that moment, you’re a practitioner, your value ad was how could you create the best tax plan? They were entrepreneurial growing their business. They realized they needed some help within their business and they’re embarking on this journey.

Now, you’re embarking on this journey, where there are some expectations. They’re expecting something from you. You’re now expecting something from yourself and you go in and realize wait, they need more than what’s what you thought. How did that come about? How did you approach things?

Jas: Fortunately, while I was going through that journey, there was an exit that was done. What I stepped in to do at that point in time was to act in the capacity of the CFO. If you think about it, there was financing involved. There was expansion involved which the CFO gets involved in. Being from a finance background, one slipped into that role very easily. But there were a lot of family dynamics.

Maybe you’re talking about family business. From the moment you wake up, you’re into family dynamics. That experience just showed me how much more there was to learn about family business, because sitting in an office back in Calgary, I never ever imagined that families had issues to deal with concerns. It was the Kumbaya moment for me to say, this is not about the delivery of a tax plan here.

This tax plan may not even be appropriate for this family at this stage of their journey and it was just a case of falling into it.

When I looked back, again, reflecting on it. I think I’d sell into it because I was willing to learn. And frankly, it was a great opportunity. I was being paid for it.

Cory: Absolutely. And that goes back to the people you were surrounded with, not only those mentors from a firm perspective and the partners, but your clients along the way, allowing you to learn and so your CFO, as you mentioned, there was an exit. Are you the business’s CFO, or are you the family’s CFO?

Jas: I was clearly brought in to be a business CFO. But what was really needed? It seemed something other than that, which to me, looking back, was the family business, CFO, the family business coach which I had no ability to do. I had no training in it. I didn’t have the tools but I felt that was the need for it.

Cory: At that point, you saw a need and you had the awareness that there was something beyond what your expectations and their expectations were originally.  Now, you’re here and realizing it’s an opportunity to learn.

This family has this CFO who’s now identified what guys I think we have a scope change. Whether the way you approach the conversation or not, there’s some change here. Was it a case where they wanted wasn’t what they needed or how did how did that come?

Jas: Cory, they needed more than what I was able to give them. But because there was an exit at that point in time, a sailed place. That was getting into the role. It’s monetization at this point in time. So now you kick in with all of the other attributes that go with finance. You’re looking at tax. You’re looking at making sure your conditions are properly later but that was a very defining moment was coming to an end.

For that relationship, it didn’t come to an end for me in terms of what was next. This is where I suddenly realized that if I was going to stay in, I’d call it the profession of the private practitioner. I needed to develop some other skills to serve these people because there were other clients.

Cory: And going back to the exit, there’s a liquidity event. This family had a business that was rapidly expanding. They’ve made clearly some great decisions within the business, and an opportunity comes knocking.

And so many of those exits are unsolicited. Now, you’re at this point where you’re new in the role or haven’t been there that long.

Jas: Your term is correct.

Cory: New rookie and this exit happens and the direction changes. And now what? You’ve been a trusted advisor to this family for a short time within that role, but they’re now standing there saying, we used to go to work every day.

This was our purpose and our value that we thought we delivered to the world and now we’re very different from our strategy. How did that play out from the family’s perspective?

Jas: Very simply played out as the family. I’m going to say going their different ways. It was just a decision that the family made was I in a position to even advise anything else then?

Not, was I in a position to have recognized that there could have been other things that could have been brought to the table. I think the light was starting to dawn on me. I can tell you that’s the line that I started looking for which eventually turned out to be the FEA program.

Cory: And so being at that point, part of the conversation, you understood that there could have been a different outcome, that your measurement of success now changes as how you measure what you deliver and what it is that families are truly looking for, so now where does that go?

How do you see family enterprises and these beautiful businesses and beautiful relationships in which people can accomplish things together? How do you approach them now based on that?

Jas: Very differently. One of the first things one, that when one is consulting with a client or for a client it’s a different role altogether. it’s now a question of “Can we sit and talk?”, “Is this what you really need?” “Tell me more about it.” It’s more inquisitive because the client has come to say “This is what I need to get done”. The role now is very different. Probably, at this point in time, people may wonder why we came in here and what are we doing with these questions.

But what I need to very often stop and say, “Yes, I know this is what you’re in for, I’m asking why?”. “What is the purpose of this? Does it fit your needs? Can you tell me more about what really is your goal? What’s your vision?”

“How does it conflict or align with what you’re talking about?” Or is this being done only because of something that you heard about, as I call it, the bad advice? I’m not saying don’t do it, but I’m not saying do it. I’m just saying, what else is there?

Cory: Now, being asked the question why is something that I came to you for this solution because I heard this was the right thing to do. Now somebody’s challenging me. I said this is what I wanted and now I’m being challenged.

How does that fit into the mindset that allows you to really provide that value beyond it? Like “I have a solution and you came to me, you came to me with the need for and I’ll deliver that”. Since you came to me with a need now, we’re going to explore this together and ensure that the bigger picture is fitting rather than one piece of the puzzle.

How does one’s mindset change from calling it the decision maker, of the family who is probably leading the charge? Maybe you’ve got a rising gen that’s saying, I think from a finance perspective, and now they sit in the chair and they’re being asked, well, “Why are you doing that?”

Jas: I’ll give you a real-life example just so happened around Christmas last year. The client came with the complete intention of liquidating and liquidation of the business is not a problem.

But the leading question was “Are you getting a full value?” Not surprisingly, the answer was we’re going to get extra dollars. I didn’t ask about the dollars. So now I had to explain more to the client.

It wasn’t your intention you fish around. It was an intention to set the table when the client said the value was X Dollars. I had to clearly explain and educate the client to say it is more about value than the dollar amount.

Bob Marley, if you remember him, I think most of us do. I can’t help every time clients come to me. I keep thinking of that line, they are so poor, all they have is money, or it’s still that effect. Everybody looks into money but here was a family where it was clear to me that the client had daughters who had worked in the business for years also, who had shown an interest in the business.

Was there any discussion about their alternatives rather than liquidating? Maybe just as a question, is there any interest from the daughters? The mindset was more of a financial objective. No doubt about it, because the analysis, the correct analysis was if you liquidate, you’re not going to get goodwill.

If you continue on, can you extract more out of this? But at the same time, if you continue, who are the people who will step into the continuity issues? Now keep in mind, this, again, going back to the family enterprise advisory lessons that we learn as you know. it’s not about the succession, It’s about the continuity.

It’s a big difference there. You need education. You need training. You need to learn the business. The daughters were sitting there, they had learned sufficiently about the business that they had an interest in it.

That whole conversation has changed over the month to where the patriarch and the patriarch are now continuing the role of the mentors and the educators, and the business continues on.

Cory: And that to them, was their definition of value when you asked them that question and got them to think differently about what the extraction of value was.

Jas: Got the family together.

Cory: Yes. And so now we’ve got somebody thinking from “I’ve built something and now I need to exit to a generational family enterprise”.

Jas: I’m exiting, they still exist. Yes, but in a very different manner. With a lot of what I defined as being respect for other members of the family, other voices could be heard with two talented people sitting there.

They built up all the relationships as well in the role that they were playing may not be at the same level as the matriarch and patriarch but they built up an absolute foundation there.

Cory: And so, Jas, is that the first time that their voice was heard? Where do you think it was some preconceived idea that this was the way I was going to exit and mom and dad didn’t really think another way or was it? Did the daughters maybe not feel empowered to speak up and say, “Hold on, maybe we’d like to continue this?”

Jas: Just looking back, I think it was all of those things. As we look at how family business evolves, invariably, at least in my experience, it’s been Dad knowing enough about welding. Starting a welding shop, Dad then became successful and went on from there.

That never stopped me from really learning more about if I may come back to it, any kind of emotions and dynamics in the family that’s how Canadian family businesses have you involved. Yes. I’m talking of the business that we are dealing with

Cory: Absolutely.

Jas: I am dealing with the education that has been there, but it’s been a very different type of education, don’t quit. Please don’t get me wrong, there’s been a lot of education but it’s a different type of education.

I as an accountant have been folly in not recognizing that I needed to ask the client the questions. Who is next? What are you going to do about the next person?

Cory: Now you made the comment of dad learning the trade or the vocation. Whatever that vocation is there’s a term for chief emotional officer not to put all the pressure on mum to be that person but it tends to be gender specific.

Although, we are seeing some evolution, as you said, back in 1970, those partners that were coaching you when coaching wasn’t a thing. And so today, within these family enterprises, we see that maybe those gender roles aren’t necessarily that way.

We’re not putting all that pressure on one person to keep the family together. How are you seeing that within families?

Jas: There’s just no doubt there have been partnerships between the matriarch and the patriarch but the businesses that come to mind right now are going through the transition and 99% of them have been patriarchal.

There isn’t any example I can find where it’s been matriarch-driven, just those are the circumstances. Cory, for a while, we’ve talked about this before. You know that I come from historically, from the logging and trucking industry.

I don’t have to tell you, matriarchs weren’t there. Even in ranching, it wasn’t matriarchic, right? So being from where I am, the interior of BC, that’s what we saw. Now we’re certainly starting to see the evolution taking place in gen 2. Where I can name you any number of clients who know about gender-specific roles. It’s whoever fits best.

So family businesses come a long way, but that’s part of the evolution. Now the role that we have to play as I think I’ve spoken to you before. I don’t like the term adviser. I don’t have the capability of advising a client because I’ve never walked in on the issues. But I can certainly coach them.

I can ask the questions to go back to the example, put 8, but are there other choices, and what has taken place going back to your question is that evolution of saying, I know it, I know what you need. Can we talk about what you need to know and arrive at a conclusion that you can live with?

Cory: Absolutely. That’s the evolution I think has taken place. This is fantastic for really the excitement of what the future holds as not only family businesses, the world evolves, but also from the those that support those enterprises going forward, just thinking about those gen 2’s and what’s next to be able to empower them to be thinking long before their exit.

Jas: Absolutely. It’s the Gen 2 has so much to offer and yes, I understand. I’m from the 1st generation, but I’ll tell you working with Gen 2 is a fantastic experience. It’s a learning experience.

Cory:  Jas, as we near our conversation today, there are a few questions that I ask each guest before we wrap up. Are you ready for the difficult ones?

Jas: Please go ahead.

Cory: Alright. what is the one key strategy that you believe is most essential for building successful family enterprises?

Jas: Cory, I hear these terms of the one key strategy, I don’t believe in one key strategy. I think a lot of things come together and there has to be respect. There’s going to be love. There’s got to be the open-mindedness to allow people to grow.

That may be coupled with respect. I think there’s got to be the ability in the families to always be prepared to keep learning and I come back to that very first question that you asked me.

Cory: Absolutely. Love it. What is the most common challenge that you see family enterprises encountering when it comes to wealth transition and generational continuity?

Jas: So, I’ll give it to you on my terms. Unpreparedness, it’s a huge challenge and what does that look like as an example? There’s been no education, no training. For that next generation to take it on.

It could be because there’s a disinterest, in Gen 2 taking it over, there are varied reasons for that and its life. Just because dad was willing to get under the hood. That doesn’t mean that next-gen is willing to get under the hood.

The next generation may be interested in medicine, they may be interested in trucking. They may be interested in anything else but there’s not been that preparedness. It’s generalizing. I mean, generalizing is dangerous.

At best, it’s not falling back on something as a defense I’m just the culture has been where the moms and dads didn’t feel like talking about the business at the dinner table. Right. As fundamental as that.

Cory: When we’re talking about that unpreparedness test, can you share just one strategy to overcome this?

Jas: The openness to learning, I think, will help, where I go back to the example I gave, liquidation versus is there another way? Were they prepared? Absolutely not. Where they were 4 months ago, 5 months ago to where they are now, I see a difference.

Are the daughters ready to take it on themselves? No. But everybody’s willing to learn. Gen 1 is going is going through a role. Complete role change where they’re allowing having to allow Jen 2 to make decisions.

Cory: That is part of the evolution and as you said, that openness to learning It’s owned not by one person, it has to be collective and you might have somebody who will champion that in a family but, it does need to be a culture where everyone’s taking that ownership?

Jas: Give everybody the room and the space to come to the decisions that they need to come to and that comes back to respect, you have a voice.

Cory: Yes. Now, Jas, I think you may have answered this question but I’ll give you the opportunity if there’s something you want to touch on here. In your experience, what are the top 3 qualities that successful family enterprise leaders called gen 1 or gen 2 leaders, possesses?

Jas: I’ve touched on it already.

Cory: You have, that respect and love.

Jas: Respect and love and openness, the ability to grow. What worked 20 years ago? What worked 20 months ago? Things don’t necessarily work today; we’ve got different tools. We’ve got a completely different environment.

I think families have to be prepared for this change, it’s taking place within themselves in that manner.  

Cory: Building that resilience as a family and ability to pivot.

Jas:  Is you look at if I may look at what happened with the pandemic, I mean, we all had to pivot at that point.

Cory: We sure did.

Jas: And family business did too.

Cory: Absolutely. Before we conclude our discussion, I’d like to highlight where our listeners can engage in more conversations that you’re having or even more learning what things you’re interested in exploring at this time. Is there anything that you’d want to share from that perspective?

Jas: Cory, certainly if this is this topic is of interest to people, go to FEX. www.fx.ca, you’ll find any amount of conversations going on there. There’s another very wonderful platform, which is the Purposeful Institute, which I know you participate in as well.

I think there are these 2 organizations that come to mind that I would direct people but there are some wonderful books out there.

Cory: Yes. Awesome. The Family Enterprise Canada has some amazing content and the things that the Purposeful Planning Institute is doing are remarkable. I’m excited about what they’re up to going forward.

Jas, I wanted to make sure that we covered everything that you wanted to share with our audience. Is there anything that we didn’t get a chance to touch on today?

Jas: I don’t think so Cory, but I’m going to the question back to you. Did I miss out on anything that you think I should have?

Cory: No. I loved your stories, Jas. I think that really getting that wisdom and, and some of that experience that you’ve had I think will be wonderful for our listeners. I wanted to thank you for taking the time. It’s really our only currency. As you mentioned, money, and as Bob Marley’s quote there; “it’s just money, but time is very precious”.

I appreciate you taking the time to come and share your experiences and those wisdoms with our listeners and I’m sure that the audience will be excited and find some value here.

Jas: Thank you very much, Cory, for the opportunity. It’s been fun spending this hour with you. Thank you.

As we wrap up this episode, we invite you to reflect on the insights Jas has shared about his journey in family business advisory and the importance of advisors understanding the true needs of the family enterprise.

Whether you are part of a family business or provide consulting to them, Jas’s experiences highlight the significance of looking beyond the immediate technical aspects and delving into the family dynamics, continuity issues, and the broader definition of value for the family.

Throughout our discussion, Jas emphasized several key insights. First, the importance of asking ‘why’—to delve into the deeper purpose behind decisions. It’s crucial to foster curiosity and engage in open dialogues to grasp the true goals and vision of the collective. Additionally, Jas highlighted that the value provided by advisors often surpasses financial aspects, reaching into the continuity of the family enterprise. Lastly, Jas proposed a distinct advisory mindset: embracing the role of a coach who poses the right questions, rather than just an advisor who provides the right answers. This approach enriches the relationship and better equips the family to navigate their unique challenges and ambitions.

For those seeking additional guidance on navigating the complexities of family business advisory and succession planning, Jas Butalia at WBM Partners LLP has extensive experience working with family enterprises. Don’t hesitate to reach out if you have specific questions or concerns. We’ve included Jas’ contact information and additional resources in the show notes to support you on your journey.

Disclaimer: 

This program was prepared by Cory Gagnon who is a Senior Wealth Advisor with Beacon Family Office at Assante Financial Management Ltd. This is not an official program of Assante Financial Management and the statements and opinions expressed during this podcast are not necessarily those of Assante Financial Management. This show is intended for general information only and may not apply to all listeners or investors; please obtain professional financial advice or contact us at [email protected] or visit BeaconFamilyOffice.com to discuss your particular circumstances before acting on the information presented.