Shaping Next-Generation Owners: Lessons in Resilience, Responsibility, and Leadership

Welcome to Legacy Builders, strategies for building successful family enterprises. Brought to you by Beacon Family Office at Assante Financial Management Limited. I’m your host, Cory Gagnon, Senior Wealth Advisor. And on this show, we explore global ideas, concepts, and models that help family enterprises better navigate the complexities of family wealth.

Today we welcome Dave Specht, Director of the Global Family Business Institute at the Drucker School of Management, whose mission, to preserve families and perpetuate businesses, has shaped his remarkable career. As the author of “The Family Business Whisperer” and founder of Advising Generations, Dave has trained over 2,500 top advisors and bankers on family dynamics and generational wealth issues. His expertise spans from establishing the Family Business Management program at the University of Nebraska to his current role as a thought leader in generational continuity of family-owned businesses.

My goal is to be the most curious person in today’s conversation with Dave Specht, where we explore the delicate balance of raising owners, not just inheritors, in family enterprises. Dave will share insights from his work helping families create environments where rising generations can truly experience what ownership means—both its opportunities and its challenges. Together, we’ll discover how families can preserve their bonds while building businesses that thrive across generations.

Now let’s dive in!

Cory: Welcome, Dave. We’re excited to have you here today to share your wealth of knowledge and experiences with us. Let’s dive in, shall we?

Dave: Let’s do  it. 

Cory: Now, Dave, imagine you’re delivering the commencement speech to the graduating class of 2025, and you have the chance to inspire them with your story. How would you begin your speech to convey the incredible lessons and expertise that you’ve gained along your career?

Dave: So the title of my speech would be Walk On, and, I would basically share my story of pursuing goals and dreams.

As a young boy, I wanted to play college basketball. And not everyone supported those goals or dreams, but I wanted it really bad. And so in college, I walked on, which means I tried out for the team, and there were no promise of scholarships or money. But I chose myself, and it was an experience that I had.

I went to Brigham Young University-Hawaii, which is a small division 2 school, and I walked on, and I made the team. And I felt great about it. But in the grand scheme of things, no one really cared but me. And, that was a lesson that I learned at that point, and have applied ever since, whether it’s going through a really challenging thing with my son and health issues. It’s walking on. It’s moving forward with confidence, with faith, and doing what you think is the best thing to do, and not worrying too much about the opinions of others.

I think as you think about a graduating class, and you think about social media and how we like to compare ourselves to other people, that can be pretty terrible. And so my encouragement would be to find something that you really are curious about, and to chase it, and not listen to the naysayers and to just go after it. And ultimately, you can change your dreams along the way. But unless you’re actively and ambitiously pursuing something, you’re going to have a hard time finding happiness and joy. And, again, that can be not just professionally. That can be your goals as a family, your goals, physically. So walk on.

Cory: I love that! So many good nuggets in there, Dave, and, and hopefully, we can dive into some of those. And so you made a comment of “no one cared about me.” That’s a big comment because I think of that time of being in college, university, and it’s a very impressionable age. And, oftentimes, our self-esteem can be quite fragile. So how do you take that attitude of “walk on” and make sure that the self esteem can be supported?

Dave: Well, I feel like self esteem is really found in our identity, and how we identify should not be just our mountaintop experiences of achievement. My identity, I’ve found, is in the pursuit. I feel best about myself when I feel like I’m resilient, when I feel like I’m tough, when I feel like I’ve been knocked down and got up again. I’m way more proud of those moments than I am the mountaintop experiences of setting a goal and achieving it.

I don’t know why that is, Cory. Honestly, it’s kind of bizarre because that’s not really what we expect. It’s never what I expected, but I’m as proud of myself overcoming things that I didn’t plan for in my life as I am something that was more of a straight path or direct path. I mean, nothing in life is a direct path, but I think you know what I mean.

Cory: Absolutely! And so in building that resilience, tell me some of the work that you’ve done with family enterprises. How does that transfer to the families that you work with?

Dave: Well, in a few different ways. One,  if you look at the first generation of any family-owned business, they have grit. No doubt. Because they’ve usually established something from nothing. And as you know, being a creator, whether it’s of a product or a company, there’s going to be a lot of opportunities to learn by not achieving immediately. So there’s a ton of resilience and grit in that first generation.

Where I think it’s challenging is when you get out into the second, the third, and beyond, and they see and they have the models of people that they look up to that have been successful. And those people that have been successful aren’t always celebrating those grit-inducing moments. Oftentimes, as parents, we protect our children from things that will hurt them. And so those stories of failure may not be brought up as many times as the success stories. And so, one of the things I’m working on with my own kids is being more vulnerable with them about my own current journey. What am I struggling with? What am I working on? What am I working through? I just had a conversation with my college-age son yesterday, and I think embracing the moments of struggle and sharing those, especially with our rising generation, lets them know that it’s okay and it’s normal to struggle and to have challenges.

I fear for the rising generation that sees themselves as so different from their parents or grandparents that they can’t relate. And so I really think it’s important that we share not only the mountaintop experiences, but we share those times where we had a lot of doubt, where we failed, where we had to try again. And, ultimately, it’s those things that drive the bonds between the generations. And there really needs to be strong bonds between the generations because outsiders, you know, have very little empathy for an inheritor of a business or of financial capital. And so unless some of that empathy is coming from within, unless there is a shared understanding of the journey, it’s going to be challenging no matter where we start that journey. They’re really going to struggle with the pressure from outside.

Cory: That ability to relate to the generations before, have you seen that work well? Is there an example or story where you’ve seen a family that maybe built some of those rituals or or maybe just habits into their family to have those generations build those bonds stronger?

Dave: I’ve seen it with families that are intentional about sharing stories and capturing those stories in a similar way that you and I are talking. But to capture some of the verbal, so that when someone is gone, that story isn’t gone and that we make up our own story. So I think there’s some families that have created their own films, that they get interviewed, and they tell the stories of the journey, and those stories then can live on to grandchildren and those that may not know the person directly. So I think storytelling is a really important part of it. The rising generation needs to know how to tell the story of their family and of their family business.

I’m a big fan of, I think, you know, almost every family has some immigration story, and usually those are really interesting stories. I know my life was impacted when I finally learned our family’s immigration story. They were Germans living in Russia in the Volga River Valley, and it was a terrible time and they had to get out. My dad sharing that story with me helped me to realize just how fortunate I am to have the opportunity to work and to have freedoms, to pursue my goals and my dreams. And because I know that story, I’m filled with gratitude, and I’m less likely to complain about my life.

So learning from the past and knowing our own stories, and then identifying what are some of the character traits that I see in myself that perhaps my grandfather had. And in finding those kinds of generational connections, there’s a lot of power and a lot of hope.

Cory: That’s awesome, I love those character traits! I want to go back to that immigration story because, so often we hear of the founder who was an immigrant. And, you know, most of our listeners would be within North America. We do have some outside of North America, but we really are a continent that’s built with so many immigrant stories. But that grit, there’s something about that immigrant who takes their life and a few belongings, and sets out for a better life. And that better life isn’t just in a different community but oftentimes breeds entrepreneurialism.

Having those character traits between generations, what are those that maybe a grandfather to the grandson or or grandmother, can really pass on or say,  Yeah you know, we don’t have those same experiences, but here are some of those traits that I have that I think I want to ensure continue?

Dave: As I think about our immigration story, I don’t believe that those that physically immigrated were the only ones that came. I think we weren’t even born, but they brought us with them. And I think that we were on their minds when they made that trek. And so, one of the questions I like to ask to my own kids is what are we doing with our last name? Are we being good stewards of our last name? Our ancestors had these specific traits. What are we doing to honour them by the choices that we’re making?

I think it’s important to just have some of those really interesting and introspective conversations and also encourage them to have their own dreams. An immigrant has a dream, I mean, they’re pursuing something. They’re fleeing something, but they’re also pursuing something. And when I think about success across generations, it’s when there’s multiple generations of people that are in active pursuit. I worry about the rising generation that does not have a goal, does not have a specific ambition, because where there isn’t a goal or an intention, there will be floundering and there will be sadness, honestly.

I see a lot of members of the rising generation that haven’t developed their own ambition, maybe because they’re always in comparison with their parents. And so they’re stifled, and they oftentimes will not make decisions on what they should do, or what they would like to do, or what they’d like to pursue, because they don’t feel like it will ever match up or measure up. And I think we need to remove some of that and encourage them to be in active pursuit of their dreams. And whether those dreams happen to align with being in the same family business or not, I think we need to celebrate the pursuit.

Cory: You made a comment about comparing against others in the sense of social media and those external comparisons, but then you just talked about the comparison against previous generations. And, you know, we talk about the shadow and living in the shadow. What sort of things can we do to really harness those character traits and really help that rising generation have the goal, and maybe build that within the culture of the enterprise?

Dave: Well, the things that we say matter. If we say things like, “Someday, honey, this will all be yours,” that’s creating an expectation. If we are actively looking for the unique talents and traits of our children, and calling them out on those great things, and encouraging the development of those talents and traits, again, whether they have anything to do with the family enterprise or not, I think as a parent, there’s nothing better that we can do than pay enough attention to our children to help them discover their talents, and then pour gas on the fire and encourage the development, the active pursuit of those things that they really care about. Whether that is playing the piano, or a sport, or some educational endeavour, it’s the pursuit and what they learn in the pursuit that can then be translated into whatever they do next.

So, you know, I have six children. I don’t really care what they pursue, but I need them to pursue something ambitiously. Because ultimately, they’ll learn something on the path that then if they want to do something professionally or they want to become something within the family, or develop a trait or whatever, they know that they can do it because they pursued something ambitiously.

Cory: And so that pursuit and that curiosity, it’s part of you as a parent. It’s a value that is deeply important to you. And so transferring those values, it’s hard work. And so as we see families focusing on certain aspects, you know, the best time to plant a tree is yesterday. The second best time is today.

So, you know, somebody who might be feeling, “Oh, men! I wish I had really promoted that value.” What do you think, just even thinking about some of those rising gen that are in university, maybe high school, maybe they’re in their thirties, maybe they aren’t pursuing. What do you think we could do to help them pursue that?

Dave: I think it starts with just us being more intentional. If my mom calls me today and encourages me, I’m 47 years old, I have a family of my own, but if she calls and offers an encouraging word or just wants to check on me, it makes a difference. So we don’t age out of parenthood, I would say, first of all. Do I wish I did some things more intentionally with my 23-year-old daughter than maybe I’m doing right now with my 7-year-old daughter? Maybe. But the opportunity is not lost. I still have a relationship with my 23-year-old daughter, and the best time to begin is today, and we’re always learning. 

I also think it’s a great opportunity for us to come to our children and also apologize when we haven’t measured up or when we haven’t maybe spent the time that we now realize we maybe should have. There’s nothing more humbling than apologizing to your child. But there’s also nothing that drives you closer than your child knowing that you’re humble enough to say, “hey, I messed up” or “I didn’t do everything that I wanted to, and I want to start anew. Would you allow me to do that?” I mean, that takes a lot of vulnerability.

Cory: It does.

Dave: Well worth it.

Cory: Absolutely! And so when we talk about continuity of the enterprise and some of these things where I wish I would have done this differently. I love the idea of apologizing. I think that that fresh start, just because it happened, doesn’t mean that it can’t be repaired. And so in the focus of continuity of the enterprise, what sort of things have you seen where, you know, maybe things are going off the rail? Maybe it’s like, “You know what? Maybe we’re ending this journey.” And when I say ending this journey, maybe there’s a Y in the road here, and there isn’t a second option. We’re gonna go hard right, and that’s okay. How have you seen anyone who’s really embraced that hard right and said, “It wasn’t what we thought, but, hey. We’re on this new path.”

Dave: I’ve seen a lot of hard rights. They come in different forms and and fashions, but one was a business owner that received an offer to sell his business for more than he ever dreamed. And he took the offer without consulting with the rising generation, and there were three kids in the business. And the children in the business really felt betrayed. And I mean, they had a big pile of money now that they could all use, but the rising generation felt like, well, the business was their future. And so now what? Yes, we have financial capital, but the business was our dream too, and you didn’t consult us in that dream. And so when dad thought it was going to be a celebration, it turned out to be not quite so positive.

And so owning up to the fact that “I didn’t know. I thought this was creating a huge windfall and victory for all of us.” And so anyways, I was a part of, working on repairing those relationships and helping the rising generation to find their own way when the business was not going to be a part of the future. Just one hard right. I mean, there’s others where it’s like the employment relationship is not working out, and, and you need to have hard conversations about how it’s not really working and how we need to try something different.

I think leading with curiosity and all of those things, and wanting to know how the other person felt is a good place to start. That isn’t always what we want to do. We always want to feel understood. We don’t always want to do the work to understand others. But I think if, again, if we can always lead with curiosity and empathy, even in those really rocky times when you have to make really tough decisions, I think the opportunity there is you may be able to preserve the relationship even when you may not perpetuate the business, or perpetuate the employment relationship in the business. And I am a big believer that it should be in that order. Preserve the family. Perpetuate the business. If you can’t preserve your family relationships, your business is not going to provide the joy and solace that you’re looking for.

I think a lot of planning happens in reverse. You know, how do we perpetuate this business? And then later on, we basically come to the question of, can the family live within the plan? I mean, that’s the Jay Hughes question.  And so I try to flip it on its head and try to figure out what is best for the relationships, have some of the hard questions before we’re putting very firm plans in place so that there’s conversations. There’s some paths to liquidity if needed. And there’s just openness.

Cory: Right! Now one of the things that came to mind there, and I love the story where dad’s dad’s definition of success was different. And oftentimes we hear it, of the next generation didn’t live up to dad’s expectations. But I love that you gave us an example where dad didn’t live up to the next generation’s expectations. And so defining that success as a family and talking about kind of best practices or an example of a strategy that has worked, how have you seen people ensure that they collectively understand what success looks like?

Dave: It’s challenging because I think you actually need to start with your own personal definition of success, and then bring those definitions to the table so that you can then collectively decide what success looks like for us collectively. Because it may be that my definition of success is, I make a certain amount of money, and then I have a lot of time to spend with my children at this stage of their life, where it could be someone else that’s at a different life stage, that wouldn’t align at all.

But again, being curious about how others define success and then figuring out, is it possible for us to create a shared definition of success that fulfills the wants and needs of the family? And, you know, ultimately, you need to have a business that is run really well. Otherwise, those definitions are not going to be made. So it’s a healthy balance between serving the business, and also serving the individual family members.

Cory: Right! And so in that, talking about the success of the business, you know, it continues to take innovation to move forward. And I love the “preserve the family, perpetuate the business.” In that “perpetuate the business,” how do we do that? Where is it? Because as you say, oftentimes the family has to live within the plan. But how do we use your quote and actually see that in life?

Dave: One of the keys to multigenerational success of a business is we need to raise owners. And many times, we’re not raising owners. We’re raising employees. And the most successful family businesses help the rising generation to feel what ownership feels like as early as possible so that they can determine for themselves, “Am I cut out to be an owner, or do I really just want to be an employee? Or do I not want to participate actively in the business?”

Again, I think there’s this, you know, that we’re kind of wearing multiple hats where you’re a business owner, you’re also a parent. And so there’s this desire to love our kids equally. You know, the business doesn’t always love them equally or value them equally. And so it’s really a challenge, but I think developing a rising generation with eyes wide open as to what it means to be an owner—what are the rights of an owner? What are the responsibilities of an owner? So part of that is asking them really hard questions.

One of my favorite questions is, “would you like to inherit part of this business?” That’s not the hard question. The hard question is next. And because most are going to say, “well, of course,” or “Would you like to inherit this wealth?”  “Of course,” The next question, which is the hardest one is, “how do you feel about inheriting the debt? How do you feel about personally guaranteeing the loan and having your house at stake so that you can have some ownership in the business?”

We don’t ask the hard enough questions Cory early enough because, ultimately, if we ask hard enough questions, we’re going to allow that rising generation to think and also have conversations with their spouses about, do we really want to be owners? And many times they are thrust into ownership, not really knowing what their responsibilities are, and it’s in those moments where things often go sideways because there isn’t alignment with ownership and the intent and being fully bought into what it means to be an owner. So I think raising a rising generation of owners is one key.

Cory: I love that! And tying that back to your comment of parents protecting their kids from the moments that create grit is, what are we putting on the line here? What are the risks of creating this business? What do we actually have to do? What does it cost us in risk? We’re not only giving our time and energy to this, but there’s a lot of different aspects.

Dave: Let me share an example with you if I could. There’s a great story about a family that they’re an agriculture family, and they had a son that was working in the operation, and they were debating whether he was ownership material or not. And so they took a little bit of my advice and said, “we want you to learn to feel like an owner so that, A, you can decide if you want to be an owner, but, B, we can decide if it would be best for you to be a partner with us. And so what they proposed was that he manage part of the farm, and that part of the farm, that he run the entire thing. So profitable, not profitable. And they also cut his salary in half. So he had the opportunity to earn a lot more money if the farm was successful, but he was also going to be aligned with the challenge if the farm was not successful.

So just the act of them proposing, look, we’re going to take a little bit of the safety net away, but we’re going to also offer you the upside. And what happened was they saw the level of care with how he managed that farm change because there was greater alignment. And so I think business owners need to be more creative with creating those environments where their rising generation can feel what ownership feels like, so that they can make a decision that they want to be an owner and so that the current owners can feel like, “okay, they are aligned with us, they are all in.”

Cory: I love that!

Dave: It was a good scenario that actually ended up working out well, and he did become a partner in the farm.

Cory: As you explain that, really what I hear is creating an environment that takes that rising gen out of their comfort zone, but there’s still a bit of a safety net there, where the family’s still there, but really in a way that says, “Look, you’ve still got a portion of the salary; you’re not going to starve here, but we’re going to allow you to really feel that ownership and that connectivity to the business.” And oftentimes, even from a society perspective, those who own property and have ownership really care for their community and care for the things around them because of that alignment. And so what can we do within the enterprise to help all of the family really feel like owners?

Dave: Well, think about the relationship with lenders too. I mean, if the lender knows that the family is treating the rising generation in that way, the lender is more likely to extend credit when the parents are gone because they’re raising a generation of owners, not just of labourers or operators.

Cory: Yes. Such a difference. And oftentimes, those lines are blurred. You know, the founders think, “well, I’ve rolled up my sleeves and got to work, and that made me a business owner. And so I want to teach my next generation how to roll up their sleeves as well. And I think really differentiating those roles and what hat am I wearing? I really like that Dave of really understanding what it means to be an owner.

Dave: One other thing I think that business owners are typically a little bit slow about is exposing the financials for what they really are. You know, how does the rising generation really know if the business is profitable? If they’re making decisions that’s leading to profitability or not, how do we give them eyes to see clearly how to make the business successful or not? Unless we’re exposing them to some of the financial aspects of the business, we’re really raising employees with blinders on. And so the earlier we can start to expose that rising generation to again see the whole picture, the more prepared they’ll be, and they’ll act more like owners.

Cory: Yup, absolutely! You know, don’t hide behind the discussion of money for too long because it’s hurting progress better than it is helping.

Now, Dave, as we near the end of our conversation, there’s a few questions that I ask each guest before we wrap up. Are you ready for the tough ones?

Dave: Let’s do it! Bring it!

Cory: What is one key strategy you believe is most essential for building a successful family enterprise?

Dave: One of the keys is that we are owners by choice and not owners by force. If you want to get from generation to generation, you need to create a clear path to liquidity so that anyone that is an owner stays an owner by choice, and is not there by force. When you look at any family that has a lot of dysfunction, many times they do not have a path to liquidity. And so conflict starts to rear its ugly head in different ways because they don’t know how they can get out, and they feel trapped. So I think one of the keys to a successful multigenerational family business is owners by choice, and creating that path to liquidity.

Cory: That’s awesome! What does that look like to truly have choice? Can you give us an example of that?

Dave: So, clarity with if I raise my hand tomorrow and say, “I don’t want to be an owner, what are the terms? How am I going to be treated on the way out? Am I going to be vilified? How quickly can I be bought out?” It’s best that the business owner create terms that are going to be friendly to the business, that are not going to put the business in jeopardy, but share those terms. Whether there’s an annual number that the business is willing to buy back shares from any of the shareholders, or however the business owner creates that expectation, but share those intentions, share those expectations so that someone that is questioning if they want to be here long term, they know how to get through the door out, and they don’t have to navigate the emotional complexity of having to bring it up.

Cory: I love that! And, really the importance of shareholder agreements. They’re not just a legal document that the lawyer throws together. It’s truly a living, breathing document that the family needs to adapt and and truly live.

Dave: Yeah, they need to be well thought out and revisited very regularly.

Cory: Yes, now what is the most common challenge that you see family enterprises encountering when it comes to wealth transition and generational continuity?

Dave: Well, when you talk about wealth transitions, most people think about money transitions. And so I think the first thing that we could do is redefine wealth. Jay Hughes again is a mentor of yours and mine, and he’s encouraged us to redefine the term wealth to well-being. And if we look at how we talk about wealth as well-being, then perpetuating well-being may be different than perpetuating financial capital. And so it just completely changes the dialogue. So, again, that’s the first thing I would do with regards to talking about wealth transitions, or generational transitions, is make sure we have a good definition of what wealth means, and that may impact how we spend our time, and how we put plans together to actually impact the well-being of the individuals that will be influenced by that plan.

Cory: Love that! I appreciate that definition because, really, what’s it for if we don’t have the well-being of the people?

Dave: Yes, money is just simply a magnifier, and it will make us more of who we really are. So we better be working on who we are. Otherwise, it will magnify all of our warts.

Cory: Absolutely! And talking about who we are, in your experience, what are the top three qualities that successful family enterprise leaders possess?

Dave: So the first one is that the family business leader needs to be in service of the business and in service of the family. It can’t be about them. That’s the first thing: they view their role as a stewardship role. They view the business as something that’s bigger than them. That is one of the keys, is that they are servants to the business, servants to the family, and that they realize that it’s bigger than them, and that they’ll be there to serve for a time and then it will transition. So that’s tough though, because it’s pretty easy for your identity to get wrapped up in the role that you play in the family business. But the most successful ones view that role as a servant to the business and to the family.

The second, I would say, a leader is that is really clear in their purpose and the direction. So when a business has a very clear purpose and direction, the employees know what’s expected of them, and they can run in the same direction. That business leader is a good communicator, and they’re taking the pulse of how employees are doing in relationship to that vision that’s been created.

The third one I would say is they need to have a great mix of confidence and humility. So I need you to be confident enough that I want to follow you, but I also want you to be humble enough that you can hear when things are difficult and you’re willing to listen to employees and make changes.

So I think, having it not be all about them, having a person or people that can create clarity and purpose and direction. And then, again, third is that really tricky mix of confidence and humility. 

Cory: Absolutely, that is a tricky mix! And it definitely needs to ebb and flow. It can’t be a static mix either.

Now before we conclude our discussion, I’d love to highlight where our listeners can engage in more of the conversations you’re having, what you’re up to, the people that you’re listening to, and things you’re reading. Because I know you’ve got a pretty good pile of books that you’re reading right now, which some of them I’m also reading. So can you kindly provide our guests where they can find you and what you’re up to?

Dave: Sure, I run a monthly interview series called Authors @ Drucker, and we highlight authors that are writing about multigenerational family companies and families that have multigenerational wealth. And that’s kindly sponsored by the Jay Hughes Foundation. So it’s open to the public. It’s free. I would just Google Authors @ Drucker, and you’ll find it.

There’s a couple of really important master classes that we’ve been working on. One is with Jay Hughes. It’s called the Generational Wealth Master Class. And then a second one that will come out in 2025 is the Family Business Master Class with Dennis Jaffe. I feel so privileged to just be in conversation with those two incredibly generous, competent, and humble men. I would love for each of you to go on the journey and learn with me in those master classes.

So, I think the best place to connect with me is on LinkedIn. I’m typically kind of posting what’s new, what’s next, and that’s a good place to kind of follow what’s going on.

Cory: Love it! I’ve had a small taste of your master class with Jay Hughes, fantastic content. I know that the class with Dennis will be just as insightful, and I’m excited for that one.

Now I wanted to make sure that we covered everything today. I know that we can’t cover everything in our short time, but is there anything else that you’d like to share with our audience that we didn’t get a chance to touch on?

Dave: Well, I would encourage empathy for yourselves. We’re all on a journey. Again, we always see people that seem to be steps ahead of us on that journey. Our relationship with money is complicated. Whether you’re the creator of that money or you inherited some of that money, or whatever it may be, I would just extend a level of empathy to yourself as you go on that journey of figuring out who you are and how you can be in service to the world and to your family. I think empathy is a beautiful thing, and we need it. We oftentimes extend it to others, but are a little stingy with ourselves. So give yourself some grace, understand that others are on the journey as well, and trying to figure out how to be in relationship with financial capital and how to make sure that that financial capital is is in service of the development of those other qualitative capitals, and and helping us to become the people that we want to be. So extend a level of empathy to yourself and to others that are on the journey.

Cory: That’s awesome! That’s a great message to end on, Dave. And I wanted to thank you for sharing your time, your expertise and experiences, and those amazing stories. Those stories really help people grow and learn. So thank you for sharing your insights. They’ve been incredibly valuable to me, and I’m sure they’ll be, our listeners will be grateful as well for your contribution. So thank you.

Dave: It’s been fun, thanks for the invite!